Episode 77 - October 11, 2021

Enjoy the Petite Vue with Dave Rupert

00:00 / 00:00

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Have you ever wished that Vue was smaller? We know we have. Petite-Vue is an astonishing 5.5KB, which is so small, it’s almost invisible. Dave Rupert, a developer at Paravel, joins us today to discuss all things Petite-Vue. We hear how this smaller version was released, and Dave shares what his experience of using it has been like. Often, when a framework is more compact, there are tradeoffs or sacrifices users have to make, but this does not seem to be the case with Petite-Vue. We talk about Alpine, how Petite-Vue is different, and we also get stuck into the use cases for Petite-Vue. Dave shares one of his totally wild ideas, which, naturally, Alex is all over. Our wide-ranging conversation also touches on interviews and what needs to change with them, templates and styles, and as usual, we wrap up with everyone’s picks for the week. Tune in to hear it all!

Key Points From This Episode:

  • Get to know today’s guest, Dave Rupert.
  • Everyone's take on how they would feel if Vue was five kilobytes.
  • The story of how Petite-Vue came to be released.
  • Dave’s experience of using Alpine and some of the challenges he had with this.
  • What the jump from Vue to Petite-Vue is like.
  • Hear about the idea that Dave runs past Alex.
  • Some other great use cases for Petite-Vue.
  • Unpacking the broken coding interview system; things need to change.
  • Questioning some obscure hiring requirements.
  • The framework Dave uses given that he works in an agency.
  • In business, frameworks can become politicized and sites for contention.
  • Things other people do that make everyone believe they are monsters.
  • Diving into the world of template style and script.
  • Where you can find Dave online to tell him how wrong he is about all his choices.
  • Everyone’s picks for this week; there are some great ones!


“I think five kilobytes is the perfect stealth technology, like Alex is talking about that you can kind of sneak it into a project and no one’s going to go, ‘Hey, hey, hey, what’s going on now? I didn’t approve this.’” — @davatron5000 [0:02:54]

“I was kind of a late bloomer I guess for Vue but I just was like, you know, I think the more I’ve used Vue, the more it has all the features I like.” — @davatron5000 [0:37:36]

“I’m just saying if you drop the opening curly brace on a four loop, you’re a monster.” — @davatron5000 [0:47:58]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:


[00:00:09] ANNOUNCER: This episode is brought to you by Cloudflare Workers. For more, visit enjoythevue.io/cloudflare-workers.


 [00:00:17] AC: Hello everybody and welcome to Enjoy the Vue. Sorry, just had to get in the weird voice. Let’s start that again.

 [00:00:29] T: We’re keeping that. No, you got it on the first try, strip it.

 [00:00:34] AC: I’m Ari and today on our panel, we have Tessa.

[00:00:40] T: Hello.

[00:00:43] AC: And Alex.

[00:00:45] AR: Hello.

[00:00:47] AC: That was eerily similar.

[00:00:53] T: I know. I knew you were going to love this.

[00:00:58] AC: Our special guest for this episode is Dave Rupert.

[00:01:02] DR: My voice is going to crack. Hello. I’ve been a little sick so it’s hard.

[00:01:10] AC: Is there anything else you’d like to tell us about yourself other than your name, Dave?

[00:01:14] DR: Hi, I’m Dave Rupert, I’m a developer at a company called Paravel in Austin Texas. Kind of a boutique agency and then I cohost ShopTalk Show with Chris Coyier, CSS Tricks and yeah, that’s kind of my life.

[00:01:30] AC: That’s an exciting life, I’m really happy for you.

[00:01:33] DR: Thank you.

[00:01:35] AC: Today, allegedly, we’re talking about Petite-Vue. We’re going to start off with a question to everyone. Have you ever wished that Vue was only 5 kilobytes?

[00:01:47] AR: All the time.

[00:01:48] T: I don’t have to talk like this the whole time, do I?

 [00:01:51] AC: Only if you want to, Tessa.

[00:01:53] AR: I mean, we are talking about petite-vue so maybe we all do need to have small voices.

[00:01:58] T: That’s true, I guess. There is nothing that I have wanted more than for Vue to be 5 kilobytes, five is my favorite number and kilobyte is my favorite size. Every night, it keeps me, I’m like God, why can’t Vue be five kilobytes, then the world will be perfect. Back to you Ari.

[00:02:20] AC: Over to you, Alex.

[00:02:21] AR: I mean yeah, there have definitely been times that I want Vue to be five kilobytes because I want to be able to go, “Okay, cool, we’re going to – I’m just going to gently sprinkle this in but now I’m floating in a giant 30 kilobyte thing, five kilobytes would be great.

[00:02:39] AC: 30 kilobytes, “Oh, no.”

[00:02:41] AR: Performance.

[00:02:44] AC: If you care about that sort of thing.

[00:02:46] AR: Yeah, that’s true.

[00:02:48] AC: Now Dave, have you ever been kept up at night by that thought?

[00:02:52] DR: I do, it keeps me up nightly and fortnightly. I think five kilobytes is the perfect stealth technology, like Alex is talking about that you can kind of sneak it into a project and no one’s going to go, “Hey, hey, hey, what’s going on now? I didn’t approve this” You can just be like, “I was going to write it anyway, this is just a package for the five kilobytes of code I was going to write anyway, so it’s cool” Vue is awesome and you can use.

Well, I feel like this is a safe space to say that. Vue’s awesome. I think everyone who listens to this knows but for all the – if you’re on a legacy project or some java app or whatever, chucking Vue into the tool chain can kind of be like a deal. I feel like petite-Vue, at least in my very limited experiences, just to – even easier way to get in, because you could always kind of go in the Vue.component route and code components like without Vue files which is not the recommended way, I don’t think.

You totally could but I feel like Vue, Petite-Vue is just the perfect way to get a little bit, a bridge if you will, between where you could be going with your code base and where you could or where you currently are.

[00:04:28] T: I just realized that even though when we say it out loud, we’ve been saying petite-Vue that in my head, whenever I read it, I’ve been reading petty view and clearly, nobody else has.

[00:04:39] DR: Petty like in the French pronunciation?

[00:04:44] T: Is it French? I don’t know.

[00:04:46] AR: Petite is French for small.

[00:04:50] T: No, like with the, yeah, petty, not petite. Not the etymology, the pronunciation.

[00:04:59] DR: I think, I mean, it could – I think petty view would be awesome too. Just like – 

[00:05:05] AC: Well, we’re talking about the origins of it.

[00:05:06] DR: You suck.

[00:05:09] AC: The word petty could come to mind.

[00:05:13] T: Ari’s like, you want to talk about pettiness? That’s my wheelhouse. True.

[00:05:18] AC: I mean, it is.

[00:05:23] DR: No, maybe you can catch me up on the drama because I don’t quite know it all but I am a fan of hot drama but I don’t.

[00:05:31] AC: Alex, would you like to spill the hot “Gos”

[00:05:34] AR: I’m getting there. I’m trying to make sure that I actually have the tweet correct because my – 

[00:05:37] AC: Because it’s terrible if you made some up.

 [00:05:39] AR: Yeah, I know. If I get this out of order.

[00:05:41] DR: A factual error on a podcast? I would never, right? 

[00:05:46] AR: My recollection to the best of my recollection of how this came about to be was, I saw Evan and the creator of Alpine JS. Having a –

[00:05:57] AC: What is Alpine JS?

[00:06:00] AR: Let me back it up even further. There’s a package called, Alpine JS and it does some things that look very familiar to people who use Vue, it has things like x-if that you can put on html elements and toggle it on and off based on state. It looks very similar, it feels very familiar if you’ve ever used Vue.

[00:06:29] AR: Yeah, I think a year or two ago, when it came out, people called him out on it, called them out on it and Evan stepped in, cocreator was like, “I love Vue” Evan stepped in and he was like, “I think Alpine is great”

[00:06:43] AC: I was really hoping the response was “I love Vue too.”

[00:06:47] T: I did see somebody silently use that on twitter like a month ago.

[00:06:52] AC: Sara Drasner tweeted that a really long time ago and my response was, I love Vue too.

[00:07:01] T: We’re on Vue three now, Ari.

[00:07:06] AR: Anyway, back to the story time.

[00:07:07] AR: I hate double puns. I’m just not here for it.

[00:07:13] AR: My recollection, I’m trying to find it on Twitter right now as we’re talking is that, recently, Alpine JS did a comparison and had some statement where they were like, “Well, Alpine is smaller than Vue with eight kilobytes as supposed to Vue’s 30 kilobytes.”

[00:07:33] T: Isn’t it 24?

[00:07:35] AR: Evan weighed in a little bit as Evan has want to do occasionally and said, “That’s a little misleading” Because that’s the with the full compiler, right? If you’re actually building a Vue application, the Vue runtime and everything, it’s a lot smaller. After that discussion, the next thing that I see is Evan now going, “So, look at this, this is interesting” It is very Alpine JS-like syntax but it all starts with a V.

Shortly thereafter, he released petite-Vue which is very similar to Alpine JS but it’s using the Vue reactivity system and it is only five kilobytes. It is very interesting – excuse me. 5.5 kilobytes.

[00:08:28] T: Unbelievable.

[00:08:29] AR: Get it right.

[00:08:30] T: Strike him out. How do you kick someone from the recording?

[00:08:34] AC: Yeah.

[00:08:36] AR: It’s a very – if you are wanting to be able to drop in some reactivity on top of an existing webpage, if you’re doing a lot of things and like, PHP or Ruby or Python or other languages where it vary, your rendering things on the server, this might be a good way to be able to just sort of like, “Oh, but I want a little bit of reactivity here so we’re just going to sprinkle some stuff in.” Rather than having to build a full-on application.

[00:09:01] AR: Let me make sure that I got this right. Evan created Vue, the Alpine person created Alpine which is like Vue then Evan created petite-Vue which is like Alpine so basically created Vue again.

[00:09:18]AR: Yeah.

[00:09:19] AC: Smaller.

[00:09:20] AR: It’s a Vue-ception, yes.

[00:09:21] T: Why don’t we all just use petite-Vue then? Because it’s small?

[00:09:24] AC: Because I want transitions and I’m just assuming that they took that out for petite-Vue.

[00:09:30] DR: You know, that’s actually a good question. I don’t know the answer to that one.

[00:09:35] AC: I don’t. I probably should have looked that up.

[00:09:36] DR: That’s something that Alpine does have. I feel like Alpine, it does not look like as transitions in the classical sense of Vue but that’s something Alpine does have and you know, Alpine kind of popularized by tailwind because it was like, in all the docs. I think it was popularized by it too because the first section, the first thing, you’re like, thinking tailwind is like, when I click this, I want to show up. That was a lot of the docs were like, okay, well now, we need a system that can lightly add estate into these tailwind components, you know?

That was my experience in test-driving Alpine and stuff like that and I actually – for whatever reason, it could have been the tailwind, it could have been the Alpine, it could have been the mix. It was like, my experience was not like, “Oh, I love this” I wasn’t like, “Heck yeah, I can’t wait till the next time I’m going to use this, you know?” curiously, my use petite-Vue, I have this bookshelf on my blog, it’s like the last – I’ve been collecting the books I’ve read for the last, almost 10 years and I – it’s up to 200 something books now or something like that, 250 or something.

I wanted to add this category filter, sci-fi books or graphic novels or something like that. It’s all in Jekyll, it’s literally just YAML file, that’s my database and it spits out this page and I was like, I want to add this but I want to – I’ve wanted to do it in all big Vue for a long time but big Vue is kind of a lot of action for a Jekyll webpage. I was like, “well, maybe petite-Vue fits this vibe quite well” In an hour, I was done, it was pushed up and I was like, “That was so great, I will probably use it 20 times over because it’s Vue, it’s not some off brand package or something” Not that Alpine is that.

I’m using Vue on two or three different projects right now, you know, it was like, “Okay, cool, this is like very wheelhouse, very like, what I’m using” This is great and I don’t know, the Vue directive system is pretty great. I know that gets contentious everyone around react folks but it’s –

[00:12:05]T: I mean, I was going to say.

[00:12:06] AC: Again, safe space.

[00:12:07] T: It sounds like.

[00:12:08] DR: Safe space, yeah.

[00:12:09] T: It sounds like the jump from Vue to petite-Vue is not as big as the jump from say, react to react native. I say, having no experience with react native.

[00:12:18] DR: Yeah, it’s not like that, it’s more like, okay, all my directives, where most of them, I guess. There’s like a list but all my directives work, at click works.  That’s cool. I don’t know if the way I was doing it before was document, query selector, my button. .add if end listeners and I’m just, you know, I got that thing at the bottom of the file that’s just like lord in Lou, this is just big nonsense.

Now I can just at click and then do some method or whatever or set it directly in there, set the state directly in that click handler and I didn’t even have to write a block of code. I don’t think I have a block of code. I think it might – the whole bookshelf just is now just directives that do all the interactivity. 

The other bonus is that progressively enhances. If you – I’m just rendering HTML and then all the directives handle all the interactivity. That’s kind of sweet too. I didn’t have to literally, zero sacrifices. I mean, five 5.8 kilobytes I guess would be the sacrifice but.

[00:13:29] AC: 5.5.

[00:13:30] DR: 5.5. Lay off.

[00:13:33] AC: White men.

[00:13:36] T: My bookshelf is made of particle board so I’m feeling very much like wow, I can’t sit at the cool kids table.

[00:13:42] AR: What you got, Billy? Is it Billy? It’s a Billy.

[00:13:44] T: Yeah, I have a Billy, everybody’s got the Billy.

[00:13:47] AR: Yeah, I got three of them right over here too.

[00:13:49] AC: I bet the Walmart off brand.

[00:13:52] DR: Good.

[00:13:53] T: Yeah.

[00:13:54] DR: Bill.

[00:13:57] T: William, looks like a Billy but it’s not.

[00:14:02] DR: This is Ivar here in my background.

[00:14:05] T: Yeah, I love the look of Ivar but if I recall correctly, I feel like you can’t change the shelf height?

[00:14:11] DR: You can’t change it. Those are customizable but it’s also very sold out, it was hard to find the pieces. Unless, you’re cruising IKEA at midnight.

[00:14:24] T: I do that all the time. I’m just rolling down the aisles with my cart and being like, when does Vue going to be 5.5 kilobytes large? Every night.

[00:14:36] DR: I’m with you.

[00:14:37] T: Yeah, I’m struggling a bit with this conversation because just like whenever anybody says petite-Vue, my mind goes petty view, we’re also talking about Alpine and there’s this old game called Snowboard Kids and Snowboard Kids 2, there was also Snowboard Kids for Nintendo DS but it sold out.

One of the boards you can pick there is Alpine board and whenever you pick it, the game voice goes, Alpine, every time you all are talking about Alpine, my brain goes, Alpine and it’s just really noisy. Anyway.

[00:15:03] AC: My brain goes to the stereo.

[00:15:07] DR: The brand? Yeah, okay.

[00:15:08] AC: Boys in the hood, yeah, trying to steal alpine because my best friend had an Alpine in her car when we were in high school and you know, that was a big deal back then because this was like, forever ago. Literally, anytime I hear the world, even though I live in Colorado and I hear the word a lot. Still, stereo.

[00:15:27] DR: That’s funny.

[00:15:28] T: Sounds like what you’re saying is, that’s not stereo typical for Colorado.

[00:15:35] AC: Tessa always wins with the puns.

[00:15:37] DR: That’s good delivery, that was good. 

[00:15:43] AR: Now, I’m looking at the alpine docs.

[00:15:47] AC: Stereo or no?

[00:15:49] DR: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Didn’t Alex, you use alpine on your stream? Am I?

[00:15:56] AR: Yeah, I did try. I tried. I was attempting to setup some stuff and I could not get it to work. I think I was having the same issues thought with Vue but now I’m beginning to wonder if it wasn’t like a – 

[00:16:07] AC: Just you?

[00:16:08] AR: Yeah, if it was just me.

[00:16:10] T: Yeah, it’s not me, it’s you.

[00:16:11] AR: Yeah.

[00:16:12] DR: You were kind of hitting like some of the edges of alpine, right? Or you felt like it, you’re like, I don’t – 

[00:16:19] AR: Yeah, I could get it to work in a browser but as soon as I was trying to render it in a browser in OBS, it was like, no.

[00:16:26] DR: Okay.

[00:16:28] AC: Is that what you do Alex? It’s just like try to find the edge of things?

[00:16:32] AR: Yeah, I just do weird things.

[00:16:34] T: I mean, I feel like not end, the things that people are like, don’t do that and he’s like, that sounds like a great thing to do.

[00:16:40] AR: Yeah. Basically me.

[00:16:45] DR: Can I run some ideas by you?

[00:16:47] AR: Right, yeah, hold on, let me get a stick and some mud to write in, hold on.

[00:16:51] DR: Do you have any sites on Nullify? Yes, no? Netlify with the analytics?

[00:16:57] T: Yes.

[00:16:58] AR: Yes.

[00:16:59] DR: You know how it will tell you like you’re like 404’s, it will list out pages like bots I assume, try to go to like my WPconfig.php and stuff like that?

[00:17:09] AR: Yeah.

[00:17:10] DR: I’ve been thinking about honey potting the bots and putting a crypto miner on some pages. Is this a good idea or an Alex approved idea or is this a bad idea?

[00:17:20] AR: I don’t know, this could be interesting. Hold on, now we got to look at my analytics. This episode has gone on completely different direction than I think it was going.

[00:17:27] DR: Because.

[00:17:28]T: Yeah, what does it mean to put a crypto miner on?

[00:17:30] DR: I think there’s like java script based crypto miners that you put on there.

[00:17:35] T: Java scriptominers, first of all, sorry I keep going.

[00:17:38] AC: My god.

[00:17:39] DR: Java scriptominers. Gosh, you’re really good at this.

[00:17:43] AC: He is.

[00:17:44] DR: Okay. Then, it will, I guess, whatever, deposit to your crypto wallet, your java scripto wallet and then, it will – I don’t know after that but I’m just curious if you could do that and then – 

[00:18:00] AC: Alex found something. His face, I’ve never seen.

[00:18:03] AR: You weren’t kidding.

[00:18:05] AC: The delight that I’m seeing right now.

[00:18:08] T: I have also never seen Alex experience delight or any kind of joy.

[00:18:13] AR: I have one site with Netlify analytics and I’m looking at the resources not found and you weren’t kidding, it’s all wpconfig.

[00:18:22] DR: Yeah, it’s just literal bots trying to hack you but then you put it like a web form that goes nowhere and then you just let it mine crypto in the background. I don’t know, there’s probably some ecological ethics.

[00:18:37] T: Yeah, I was going to say, if there’s no environmental impact that encourages the bots to stop running then –

[00:18:43] DR: It would make running scrips more difficult for bots. I don’t know but maybe there’s something to it, I don’t know.

[00:18:52] AR: Yeah, I think it would be interesting to see because right now, I think you’d have to first make a page there but then you can be like, “Okay, cool. What are they actually running, right? What’s the user agent? Is it something that runs JavaScript?” I don’t know. 

[00:19:06] T: I do like the idea of using the bots though, and creating the honey pot, honey bot. Anyway, maybe there is a way you can use the bots, I don’t know what they’re looking for but to either create some absurdist art or get them spreading like really weird stuff that doesn’t make sense.

[00:19:26] DR: is there like a JS implementation of folding at home or WAZM?

[00:19:33] AR: If there isn’t, I bet we can make one.

[00:19:36] DR: We could make one and then, all of a sudden, bots are curing cancers. I don’t know if it’s possible. These are things I think about and I –

[00:19:49] AC: Along with IKEA, Billy shells and Ivar shells and Vue being 5.5 kilobytes?

[00:19:55] DR: These are the things that keep me up at night.

[00:19:59] AC: I sleep well.

[00:20:04] AR: Only one of us that sleeps well.

[00:20:06] T: I got nine hours last night for the first time in months and it must have been because I knew we were going to be doing the Petite-Vue episode today so I could finally stop worrying about the size.

[00:20:20] DR: That’s great.

[00:20:22] AR: That has gone on my mural of bad ideas.

[00:20:25] DR: Perfect. That’s a pretty one.

[00:20:28] AC: If any of our listeners attempt this, please let us know.

[00:20:32] DR: Yes, feel free to contact us at woomiwoomi…

[00:20:35] T: On Twitter? What other good use cases for petite-Vue, are there like, for example. If I had a really bad Internet connection and an old phone, would – aside me and petite, do you help me out there?

[00:20:51] DR: I believe so. I mean, it’s like, smaller than jQuery, it should be good. I think it’s like a great tool for – if you need a little bit of interactivity and you don’t want to get into query selector soup, that’s just what I – most delicious kind of soup there is but, if you live that lifestyle, it’s fine, it actually is java script, it works but it’s just JavaScript, it’s fine but it is not.

[00:21:17] T: Wait, I thought react was just java script so no.

[00:21:21] DR: No, query selector is just java script. It’s just java script and it’s fine but you know, I don’t know. I don’t know,  the directive system again, it’s just so, that’s nice, let’s just use these directives, they’re fine, I love them.

[00:21:38] AR: Yeah, rather than writing 5.5 kilobytes of java script to add document.query selector this document that creates like a stop add event. Yeah.

[00:21:52] DR: Yeah.

[00:21:55] T: Veering further from our topics, since we’re talking about document.cry sector, what are everyone’s thoughts on the never dying idea that when you’re interviewing somebody for a job. If they can only answer you or solve the challenge or whatever. Reactor Vue or angular and they can’t make a vanilla JS if you must use S implementation off the top of their head, they don’t know how to code.

[00:22:19] AC: Fire them. Yeah, no. Just end the interview right there for sure. Heavy sarcasm, do not want anyone thinking that’s what I think.

[00:22:29] DR: I’m like the worst person to ask interview questions because A, I like, have worked the same job for like the last 14 years and it’s like, interviewing isn’t really something I do that often. I’ve hired people and interviewed people but I can’t say like I’m a pro at it but I don’t know. I personally probably want somebody who can query selector soup but then, you know, whatever, it’s not that hard.

[00:22:58] T: Yeah, because you can’t do it but they can look it up and get it working.

[00:23:01] DR: Yeah. I like, 100% more care that somebody is able to explain what they did or why or how or why they chose something I’m 100% more concerned about that. It’s just kind of, I don’t know. I think there’s something to be said too. Can you sling a template, that’s like my whole new thing, it’s like, can you sling a template? We need template slingers.

[00:23:27] T: What is a template slinger? What.

[00:23:29] AR: Yeah, what is a template slinger?

[00:23:31] DR: You know how to make a template, right? Can you sling a template?

[00:23:33] T: I’ll have my view file, I can use my mouse to sling the window to the other monitor.

[00:23:37] DR: Yes, sling it.

[00:23:38] AR: I mean, I can make a template tag, type in template and then open tag and then close tag and – 

[00:23:44] DR: Yeah, okay, you have this template, however you want to make them, if you want to do it with the template element that no one else on the planet uses but sure, it’s fine. You can use that one but just – I feel like 90% of our jobs, all these testing frameworks that are like, “Oh man, hey, can you prove that A equals B, you know?” Can you add two numbers in a cert that they equal five or whatever?

That’s not the job. 1% of developers do that job. The rest of us are out here like moving buttons on different files. Move that button seven components up. That’s like, 90% of the job, folks. The way you coded this component, well, now, that component is part of the header so you have to figure out how to put it in the header.

“Oh, you put it in the header? Guess what? Next week, it has to go into the footer as well, conditionally,” with an if statement somewhere and now you have a param that you’re passing around the whole damn map. That’s the job. The job is not, did you know how to add two numbers together, son? 

That’s not the job. The job is like – 

[00:24:54] T: Are you add in, son?

[00:24:56] DR: Did you assert those two things, son? Yeah, that’s not the job. The job is moves this thing.

[00:25:03] AR: This is off by two pixels, yeah, go visit some room.

[00:25:04] DR: Yeah, this is off by two pixels, move this up here. Guess what? Only on this one page, that button does a whole other thing. That’s the job. 90% of the job. I don’t know, the interview process is entirely broke, I think we see that every week on twitter. I saw this gal, she got busted for a bad commit message. Did you –

[00:25:29] T: Yeah, like, I hope this works. One of many commit messages to show her development process.

[00:25:36] DR: Then they’re like, “That’s unacceptable” It’s like, stop that.

[00:25:43] AR: The number of times that my commit message will be title of thing that I’m working on. Fixing the thing that was broken in the last commit. 

[00:25:51] DR: Yeah, oops.

[00:25:53] AC: I was in the middle of an interview and the interviewer pulls up my GitHub page and opens it like the project that I last worked on and I had forgotten that the last commit I made to that repo was all caps, it FING WORKS only I actually spelled out that word.

So, embarrassing. I’m like, my god, I’m so sorry, he’s like, “No, no. I love it, it’s great”

[00:26:17] DR: See?

[00:26:19] AC: It shows passion. 

[00:26:21] DR: Why can’t the gallant twitter –

[00:26:23] T: Upstate, it fantastically works, I don’t know why you couldn’t just say it on the podcast.

[00:26:28] DR: Yeah, amend the commit to be very professional, I don’t know. Yeah, I decided that’s like, that whole process is so busted to me but then I don’t – you know, I think somebody, I think it was – I’m blanking, Angie Jones, is that her name? Angie?

[00:26:45] T: That is someone’s name.

[00:26:46] DR: Yeah, but a famous somebody I’m thinking. I’m so bad with names.

[00:26:50] T: No, I just don’t know who is the person, who said the thing. 

[00:26:53] DR: The only director I know is Stephen Spielberg but okay. Andy Joan, she’s a java champion I believe, is her, like, the award she won but she’s very talented but she was just like, we need more blog post about interviewing than how to get hired or something like that and I just was like, “jeez, I think that’s right.”

You hear too many horror stories. I had friends who interviewed for jobs and then they got three, four rounds in and then they’re told, you weren’t energetic enough and I’m like, what? I’m mad for you because if energetic is a job requirement, it better be on the job post listing and then I’m going to come in like a camp counselor like, “Hey everybody, let’s go JavaScript” you know?

If it’s not on there, then I’m going to be Mr. Business pants and I’ll be like, “Yes, I very much enjoy JavaScript, I think it’s pinnacle language in our industry”

[00:27:53] AC: We should get him for our next ad read.

[00:27:56] T: Yeah.

[00:27:57] DR: Hi kids.

[00:27:58] T: Now that you mentioned it, I had an offer for a contract job, my first job hunt. I didn’t want a contract job. The first full-time offer I got to the final round too. The feedback was, “You did not get it, even though you were perfect for the job because you were very enthusiastic but there was someone else who was just a little bit more enthusiastic than you and they had a little bit more experience than you.”

I was like, I don’t know what you mean by – these part makes sense, I don’t know what you want with the enthusiasm part.

[00:28:24] DR: Yeah, do you want me to come in with a bowtie that spins around? What do you mean?

[00:28:29] T: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I did not say, “Hello” I said “Hello”

[00:28:35] DR: My gosh. Yeah.

[00:28:36] AC: That’s where you went wrong, obviously.

[00:28:38] DR: Then you get into gender stuff, you know, it’s like, I saw a gal the other week and got whatever, some feedback, some 360 feedback that she uptalked or something like that or she did a good job not uptalking and I’m just like, hey, that sucks. Just – can we stop? Stop the whole damn train because this all sucks.

[00:29:03] AC: I would quit on the spot.

[00:29:05] DR: Hey, you can judge your face in the fire.

[00:29:08] T: I hope if you did though, in that moment, you would say, “Hi everybody, I’m quitting now”

[00:29:15] AC: Yup.

[00:29:16] DR: I’m quitting now.

[00:29:17] T: Got to protect the videos.

[00:29:18] AC: I quit?

[00:29:20] DR: Thanks.

[00:29:23] T: Also, sorry, bye.

[00:29:26] DR: Sorry. No, there’s so many problems. I don’t know, it’s like people just want to hire mini “them’s” and I understand that feeling or I don’t know. Even those code questions like, can you reject… it’s like dude, no. I don’t know this one weird subset of programming that you know. I’ll let you reject and.

[00:29:51] T: Apparently, Dan is going to know all of it because he bought a book on rejects. I guess we can all hire Dan when we need reject stuff done.

[00:29:58] DR: I know, that’s definitely phone a friend territory, right?

[00:30:02] AR: Yeah. Sometimes I’m a bad friend. People come to me and they’re like, this reject is doing something weird and then I’m like, have you played rejects crosswords? That will help.

[00:30:12] DR: Oh no. I’ve tried, and I did not do good.

[00:30:16] T: Again, how you kick someone from a recording?

[00:30:19] AR: I don’t know, I don’t know how you kick someone from a recording. Ari has a horrified look on her face.

[00:30:26] AC: I hate rejects with a passion. I will do everything in my power to avoid it. I will write really ugly code just to avoid rejects. I think I successfully wrote rejects one time and it was only because I kind of half cheated because it needed to be IP Address like but with some additional parameters. Obviously, it’s really easy to find an IP address rejects just like done for you and then like, I was just like, okay, I think if I changed this one character here, it will do the thing. Because yeah, it needed to be a valid IP address or an IP address that ended in .xx. Yeah.

[00:31:14] DR: I mean, maybe that’s like a situation where you actually want to assert test, you know? Just like, you can assert all these garbage. I’m going to type actually, matches these rejects but that’s not the job. The job’s moving buttons around, files.

[00:31:31] T: yeah, I don’t really have any strong opinions on rejects other than one of those big sites that used to test if your rejects is working. I almost feel like the way that that’s implemented is very obtuse because I’ll have, “Select all” And then it won’t select all and I’m like, I don’t know how this thing works. Sometimes it’s select all, sometimes it selects the first line but yeah, I don’t know every time people talk about rejects, I have some line that I read somewhere years ago, playing in my head where I’m like, wow, another language this is rejects but in java script is rejects for some reason but nobody ever says rejects is a rejects. Anyway.

[00:32:01] AR: I think those, the XKCD comic of like, you have 14 problems. We can solve this with rejects. No, you have 15 problems.

[00:32:09] T: You have 15 problems.

[00:32:11] DR: Yeah.

[00:32:13] AC: Yeah, rejects makes my head hurt almost as much as recursion. My god, recursive rejects. No.

[00:32:21] DR: Please stop.

[00:32:22] AC: I hate my life now.

[00:32:24] DR: The horror show.

[00:32:25] T: If people are listening to this and they’re like, I don’t want to hear more about interviewing processes, we did record an earlier episode on interviews so if you haven’t listened to it yet, go check it out. 

[00:32:34] AC: It’s the one with Lorie Bark.

[00:32:36] AR: I don’t think we even talked about Lego that much in that one.

[00:32:39] AC: Disappointing.

[00:32:41] T: She was obviously an imposter.

[00:32:45] DR: Was that a reference to the last time I was on this show?

[00:32:48] AR: Maybe.

[00:32:49] T: What happened when you were on the show last time, Dave?

[00:32:51] DR: You killed me. All you all, banded together to kill me.

[00:32:55] AC: I think, technically it was my fault.

[00:32:58] T: Yeah, Ari and I were always dead pretty quick, or I was dead pretty quick.

[00:33:02] AC: I’d also like to point out that.

[00:33:03] T: Just pointing every time.

[00:33:05] AC: Karma was a thing in that and that the next game, I got kicked out when I was not the imposter. Hopefully you can sleep at night now, knowing that.

[00:33:16] DR: I needed help obviously but.

[00:33:19] AR: For listeners who are not aware, we all played a game of Among Us together at vuejs2020.

[00:33:27] T: VueConf US 2020.

[00:33:28] AR: Yeah, VueConf 2020.

[00:33:31] AC: 21.

[00:33:32]T: Was it 2021?

[00:33:33] T: 2021?

[00:33:34] AC: Yeah.

[00:33:35] DR: It’s this year.

[00:33:36] AR: What is time?

[00:33:38] T: We’re answering those jokes.

[00:33:41] AR: We were, during the lunch hour, we all played Among Us together with a group of previous guests and Dave was among them.

[00:33:48] DR: I was Among Us.

[00:33:49] AR: He was Among Us.

[00:33:51] T: Yeah, VueConf US 2020 was the last time I saw friends until maybe like a month ago and then I saw two friends once, that’s it.

[00:33:58] AC: Do we have the video of that on our site? Did that ever happen?

[00:34:03] T: We’ll have it some day when I have time to edit it someday.

[00:34:06] AC: Got it. I just didn’t know if it was. Something to look forward to, everyone.

[00:34:12] AR: Yay. That will be when we ever get a Patreon, we’ll just do that.


[00:34:17] ANNOUNCER 1: Previously, on Cloudflare for the dramatic. 

[00:34:20] ANNOUNCER 2: Onion application and I need it to be serverless.

[00:34:25] ANNOUNCER 1: Now, for the startling conclusion to Cloudflare, for the dramatic.

[00:34:30] ANNOUNCER 3: The client needs to be able to call secret APIs from around the world, what are we going to do?

[00:34:37] T: I think they said secure.

[00:34:39] ANNOUNCER 4: On top of that, they have to be secure.

[00:34:43] T: Well, Cloudflare worker.

[00:34:45] ANNOUNCER 4: And, he could get a hundred or a million customers. Who even knows? How are we going to support all of that?

[00:34:53] T: Cloudflare workers scale.

[00:34:55] ANNOUNCER 3: Plus, if the site takes too long to load, he says, that could cost him thousands, maybe even hundreds of dollars in sales.

[00:35:04] T: Actually, Cloudflare workers have no cold start.

[00:35:07] ANNOUNCER 3: He expects all of this to work around the world?

[00:35:12] T: Like I’ve been trying to say, Cloudflare workers supports all that. It is an edged-based serverless platform without cold starts of maintenance overhead that allows you to collect code all around the world for exceptional performance, reliability and scale. To learn more visit enjoythevue.io/cloudflare-workers.

[00:35:38] ANNOUNCER1: Oh okay, thank goodness for Cloudflare. My hero. 

[00:35:49] ANNOUNCER1: No.

[00:35:49] ANNOUNCER3: No.

[00:35:49] ANNOUNCER2: No. 

[00:35:52] ANNOUNCER: Join us next time for another episode of Cloudflare for the dramatic. 

[00:35:56] T: Are you dying? 

[00:35:57] AR: No, I’m not dying. We’re doing a recording I think for Cloudflare workers. 

[00:36:03] T: Are you sure? 


[00:36:07] AR: So Dave. 

[00:36:08] DR: Yes. 

[00:36:09] AR: I’m going to shift topics slightly. You worked at Paravel, which is an agency. Do you get to use Vue much? The last time I was at an agency, they were very much like, “No JavaScript frameworks. You get to use jQuery and raw PHP and meta.” 

[00:36:27] DR: Yeah, so a lot of my stuff is basically dependent on the client like and over the years, I’ve worked in PHP, I’ve worked in .net, I’ve worked in Java app. It’s just, whatever they have I will use, but sometimes there is a little more greenfield sort of situation and stuff like that. I’ve built an app, a progressive web app in Next for Microsoft but then it just didn’t launch just due to how big that company is. That was a bummer, but it was on the verge, but then it didn’t launch so whatever. 

Hey, but then another client here they had a problem where their WordPress was kind of quantumly entangled with their database and nothing was working and so we’re just like, “You know, we could switch to something like Nuxt or Vue” and the mandate ended up going with Nuxt or whatever frontend framework you want, but just to manage your frontend a little bit better than what you’re doing and decouple it from the database. So when more than 10 people show up it doesn’t fall over, you know what I mean? 

So we get to – and then side projects that we’ve built, I got to use Vue in, so I was kind of a late bloomer I guess for Vue, but I just was like, you know, I think the more I’ve used Vue, the more it has all the features I like. I was working for a very large piece of company and we were trying to choose a Java Script framework and I think we all – as a Java shop, so everyone kind of I think the discussion was like I think angular is the right choice, because angular has a lot of Java conventions, very similar type script and sort of mandated by default and stuff like that. 

Ended up on angular by my, my, my, I would have loved to do it in Vue and we should have done it in Vue. We should have burned down because the whole angular thing and just created all of this noise. We had to like, the build tool was so heavy we had to spin up a whole other environment inside an environment while maintaining this other environment. It was just an extreme piece of infrastructure and I don’t know that created a better product. It’s all still pretty heavy like literally like 1.5 mix of code and stuff like that and I just was like kicking myself. 

Like I should have just said Vue is the right choice everybody. I should have, I don’t know, put on my consultant hat and said, “Yeah, who is going to ” but that’s just – because Vue, we could have snuck in using that component or now Petite-Vue because snuck it in a lot easier and not like been blocked for whatever, 12 sprints by the angular infrastructure story, you know? 

Big regrets there, but you know, you can’t change it and you can’t convince people, “Hey, this framework that is number four or whatever on the list of most popular frameworks got built” It is hard to be like, let’s use this cool one. It’s just me, you got to trust me” So. 

[00:39:44] AR: If you’re in business, there is only react in angular and then there is jQuery? I think that is the other one. 

[00:39:49] DR: jQuery has one, so yeah. No, that’s what like competition shouldn’t best school for the best job or whatever, but like it vary, it comes for clients and companies and stuff. It becomes a political thing. We’re going to use this or whatever. We’re not going to – every technical decision becomes this political thing. I hate that, but it kind of does. It’s like, “Instead of writing CSS we’re just going to use Tailwind” and you’re like, “Whoa” or instead of – I don’t know or I just feel like we should be using Bootstrap instead of whatever some other thing and so you’re just like, “Man.” You’re so close at making something but now we’re going to just re-platform. 

[00:40:39] AC: Yeah, at that one agency I got an offer but his network it seemed like it was a very similar situation and you use the frameworks that companies want. Often it’s React and also mostly it does work familiar with React. Yeah, I don’t know if they work for major pizza place but they work for a big burger restaurant. 

[00:40:57] DR: Yeah, I want people from my mindset, I’m just like whatever people feel comfortable in, like I want the most people possible to contribute code, you know? I think there’s a – you know, when we made the decision we’re like, “This is a Java Shop” but by the time we made the decision and like pieces started getting implemented, a lot of turnover had happened and be like whatever, the people who are going to do it are now gone and then it just – 

I don’t know, in the offshore team they were replaced with surprise, weren’t very strong type scripters and so it just like – 

[00:41:38] T: Yeah, I was going to ask if you used type script often in your non-angular projects, because I feel like for angular, you kind of have to. I don’t – 

[00:41:46] DR: You have to, I mean it’s a very light intro, but I try to not use it. I don’t know, you all maybe fans, but it’s just like extra overhead. 

[00:41:56] T: I did not use type script. I like lose types personally, I think they’re very fun. I like when I want to coerce things and do things to other people say are bad. I’m like, I can do it because I use Java Script and I honestly like it a lot.

[00:42:09] AR: I’m a big proponent. I like pushing a JS doc, because it gives you all the nice IDE type and thing, but without having to do type script. 

[00:42:20] DR: Yeah and like the TS check or whatever at the top of the file looks kind of nice too. I feel like I can get a lot of the tools without the buy in, does that makes sense? 

 [00:42:31] T: Yes but it’s ironic, because I have tried to push JS doc in lieu of tech script many times and I can never get a different kind of buy in. 

[00:42:40] DR: Ain’t that weird? 

[00:42:41] AR: I don’t know. I tend to just do it and then people are like, “Wow, this is really nice. I could see what’s going on.” Then I’m like, “Yeah, we could make everybody do this.” They’re like, “Yeah, this is pretty good. We should just do this.” Done. 

[00:42:51] T: Yeah, I think to be able to do that though you have to have some social capital and also be at a point where you’re able to build social capital and not everybody will have that probably. 

[00:43:01] AC: It would be a white man, yeah. 

[00:43:02] AR: That too, yeah. That helps, I’m not going to lie. 

[00:43:05] DR: Yeah, no I wonder what the stats on that, how many? I don’t know, whatever.

[00:43:11] AC: I think it would be too depressing. Let’s not go down that road. 

[00:43:14] DR: No, I mean just like, we could just do this, but I think it comes back to those loudest person in the office wins. There’s probably more consequences for woman just statistically speaking for asserting yourself and that sucks. Sorry you all.

[00:43:34] T: I feel like statistically speaking, there would be fewer consequences for women because there aren’t many women. 

[00:43:40] DR: Oh okay, you’re flipping. 

[00:43:43] AC: It depends on what our sample is, like what’s our denominator here.

[00:43:48] AR: It depends on also like how you’re representing it and all of that, right? 

[00:43:55] DR: Logs, log graphs. No, I am a fan of light touch solutions like very minimally invasive. I don’t have to – 

[00:44:04] T: Oh, like Petite-Vue.

[00:44:06] DR: Petite-Vue. There is a theme here. If I don’t have to like inherit a whole ass build process, I’m kind of into it. Petite-Vue sits that. This is good, I can do that. 

[00:44:19] T: Oh gosh, remember gulp? 

[00:44:20] AC: I do. 

[00:44:22] DR: I like gulp, but anyway. That’s it. 

[00:44:25] T: I just don’t like the name. Every time people are like, “My gulp just ran.” I mean, I don’t like hearing the word gulp. It is like moist to me. 

[00:44:32] AR: I’ve only ever had to deal with gulp once and it was a legacy setup and I had to upgrade it to the latest version of gulp so that I could had a role up build process into it. 

[00:44:49] AC: I mean a moist gulp is better than a dry gulp. I’ll see myself out. 

[00:45:00] AR: Tessa, have you figured out how to ban somebody from a recording?

[00:45:05] T: I think with Vue like we’re all talking about Petite-Vue but then with gulp, you want the big gulp, right? 

[00:45:11] DR: No, a big gulp, definitely. 

[00:45:14] AR: Big gulp, Petite-Vue. 

[00:45:17] DR: That’s it. Yeah, I will still assert. I think we need scratch for build tools where you just drag your little blocks like go get these files and then sass them. Go get these files. 

[00:45:33] T: Oh gosh, yeah, anything to make build tool configs less intimidating to navigate especially when everybody has their own bespoke setups and you don’t learn anything moving from one company to the next, because everybody does the thing differently, in times like old docs that don’t apply anymore, but still we got it work somehow.

[00:45:55] DR: Yeah, you have no idea what they’re trying to do there, just ancient arcana in a JSON file. Okay, I guess it’s my problem. 

[00:46:06] AC: But YAML, right? 

[00:46:11] AR: I thought we were using TOML now. I thought that was the hot thing. 

[00:46:16] T: I know about YAML, is the thing that people hate and when they need to update our website, I didn’t know what the UI was to access the pages. So I’ve been editing the YAML by hand and it doesn’t like new lines when you have apostrophes or symbols. So that’s been really fun. 

[00:46:31] DR: I like YAML, but that’s the Jekyll fan in me. 

[00:46:35] AR: Yeah, now that I’ve had to work with YAML on like a swagger file. I have a significantly better understanding of what it’s doing, which is nice. I hate it, but I understand it now. 

[00:46:48] AC: Yeah, I have to use it, because number one, circle CI. I’ve had to touch config files, terrifying let me tell you, then also Lambdas. 

[00:47:02] DR: Do you have to use it? 

[00:47:02] T: I feel like none of the YAML I’ve worked with has been super complex. The errors that I’ve gotten, the bugs that I’ve had in my YAML hadn’t been that bad. The error messages I have gotten are garbage. They’re like, “Oh, you have this problem on line three.” The problem explanation is not clear at all and the problem wasn’t even there. It is really irritating. 

[00:47:24] DR: Yeah, I don’t know. It is like the – I like it, because it’s not curly brace oriented. I like that, but it is frustrating. It’s the same reason why I won’t use Python but like wide space sensitivity, because it is just like, “You really got to bust me on that dude?” Like when I put four, I put three spaces. You’re going to bust me on that? 

[00:47:46] T: Do you use Sass or SCSS? 

[00:47:48] AR: You just write all of your Java Script in one line, I’m understanding is from this conversation is what you’re saying. 

[00:47:53] T: I mean we all do that. That is what my profession, it is the way we code on the show. 

[00:47:57] DR: I’m just saying if you drop the opening curly brace on a four loop, you’re a monster. That’s all I’m saying. If you just did that, the curly brace goes down, you’re just an absolute monster and you probably should be, you know? 

[00:48:12] AR: I need to create – that’s what we need to do, we need to create the monster, the monster is like settings. 

[00:48:17] T: Prettier but like prettier makes your Java Script look like C. I think that is something that they’re always – 

[00:48:25] AC: Uglier. –

[00:48:27] T: Beautifuler. Also I would argue that prettier doesn’t make your code prettier, but yeah, I find it funny that Alex is the one giving Dave a hard time about spaces, because I’m always like, “Alex, you put an extra space there. Alex, this thing has two spaces.” Anyway. 

[00:48:42] AC: Okay, but people who don’t put a space between if and the opening parentheses, monsters.

[00:48:48] DR: Monsters. I agree. 

[00:48:50] T: Hi, I’m a monster. 

[00:48:52] DR: Oh no. 

[00:48:54] AR: In Python, what’s an opening parentheses for an if statement? 

[00:48:59] DR: Oh boy. 

[00:49:01] T: Okay, what about if you have your CSS, right? You’re writing SCSS and you have your class name and then you don’t put a space before the curly brace – not naming names but I have skinned somebody who do this. 

[00:49:11] DR: My coworker does this and I literally want to fire him like my coworker of 14 years, my best friend who write notes since high school. I want to fire him over that one thing where he makes the class in the curly brace kiss. No, that’s improper. 

[00:49:27] AC: Yeah, that’s wrong. 

[00:49:28] AR: What you are saying is that you want class and then curly brace on the next line, right? 

[00:49:31] DR: No, no, no, C-C-C-C. 

[00:49:34] T: I mean that is a space technically. 

[00:49:36] AC: But also, Stylant is thing that will just fix that. 

[00:49:43] DR: I like Stylant. I like Stylant and then I also – whatever I don’t – you know, you set it up once and then you’re just like, “Yeah, I’ll just whatever. I set it up, I’m a champion.” 

[00:49:52] AC: Then you try to set it up in another project and you want to die. 

[00:49:56] DR: It doesn’t work and then it’s like – and then you’re just writing CSS like you know how to do and then Stylant is like, “Dude, we don’t even – we don’t – okay, you don’t alphabetize. That property should actually go over here.” You’re just like, “Brother, you need to calm down because I know what I’m doing.” 

[00:50:15] T: I just want it to be like spell check where it squiggly lines it and then I’ll be like, ignore this one and then it will leave me alone, but add this one to the dictionary and leave me alone. 

[00:50:25] AR: The thing that frustrates me the most about Stylant is that sometimes you go like, “Oh, yeah that isn’t problematic, you’re right. Go ahead and fix that.” It’s like, “No.”

[00:50:33] T: You fix it.

[00:50:34] DR: Did you like it? 

[00:50:35] AR: You fix it. 

[00:50:36] T: Yeah. 

[00:50:37] DR: Yeah, because I’ll like command shift peer whatever and like ESLIN auto fix all problems you know, all the time. Viter is also annoying, but it will actually go and fix it, right? But Stylant yeah, you’re just like go fix it. If it’s a problem go fix it. He’s like, “No dude, I don’t touch code.” 

[00:50:56] AR: I’m not – 

 [00:50:57] AC: You reorder the properties, that’s your job. 

[00:51:02] AR: What? You don’t remember the alphabet? Oh gosh, I am not going to do it for you then. This is a learning moment. 

[00:51:10] DR: Yeah, you used two main properties.

[00:51:13] AC: Although never add Stylant after the fact, you will hate your life so much. 

[00:51:18] AR: That one giant commit that’s just suddenly everything is in a completely different order. 

[00:51:23] DR: I tried to do that, because my coworker makes the curly brace kiss and it was just so bad. I just was like, “This is the next 42 days of my life to fix this project.” So I gave up because I just was like, “I can’t. I can’t do it.” You know, but – 

[00:51:42] T: I know, one time I’m new to pair with that coworker on some snippets and he kept on making the curly braces kiss and I was like, “Alex, I literally cannot focus on the work, because I am just looking at the curly brace technique last name.” 

[00:51:58] DR: I can’t do this. I can’t do this. That’s funny. 

[00:52:04] AC: It’s like people who put template tags first. 

[00:52:08] AR: Yes, Dave. 

[00:52:10] DR: I do that.

[00:52:12]T: Oh no. Wait, how do you kick someone from this, from the recording? 

[00:52:15] DR: Okay, Chris Quarter brought this up. He puts the script at the top, is that what you all do? 

[00:52:19] AR: We might have –

[00:52:21] AC: Because we told him to. 

[00:52:22] AR: Yeah, we may have told him to do it. 

[00:52:25] DR: Okay, I see. I now see where the problem came from, why Chris was led down a wrong path. 

[00:52:32] AC: Technically, I am the problem. 

[00:52:34] T: Well, I mean if you really want to get technical, Chris Fritz was the problem, well –

[00:52:39] AC: Yeah, no, because it is Chris Fritz – 

[00:52:46] T: The people pulled Chris Fritz, this is a good idea and then convinced him we’re the problem. 

[00:52:46] AR: Then yeah it’s, “Well, actually it’s part of the style gig for Vue.” 

[00:52:52] AC: Okay, well actually – 

[00:52:56] DR: We do see that, did well actually here, okay. 

[00:52:58] AC: The style guide does not state a preference on script or template. First, either one is acceptable, but never ever style first. 

[00:53:09] T: I like to put style first. That’s the thing that’s most important right? Presentation, it makes sense to me. 

[00:53:15] DR: Well, so I feel like it should go template, style Java Script. Is that too out there? I know.

[00:53:23] T: You need to flip between Java Script and template, but not between Java Script and style usually all that much. So that’s why that order was proposed, because you need to flip between your script and your template and as you know your template and your style, but not really the other ones. I was like, it makes sense. I hate it because I am so used to template first. I spent like a year a half practicing script first until I was like, “Okay, I am comfortable with it.” 

I kept on trying to explain that really work, yeah it is uncomfortable at first and everybody hated me and nobody does it.

[00:53:56] DR: I like your co-workers. 

[00:53:57] AR: Or we could just make everything be an external thing so that you have like script template and then like each one is in it’s own file and then it doesn’t – 

[00:54:08] T: No, I hate it. No. 

[00:54:09] DR: That’s cool, you just invented angular.

[00:54:09] T: No, no. This is terrible Alex –

[00:54:13] AR: You can do angular in Vue. 

[00:54:15] AC: You can –

[00:54:16] T: Oh but I forgot the name. I forgot the name of the extension but somebody did make something that you can see all three parts on different panels at the same time and still have them be in one file so you’ve got the convenience though. 

[00:54:24] DR: There is a code extension for that, right? 

[00:54:26] T: Yeah. 

[00:54:27] AC: Is there? 

[00:54:28] DR: Yeah, I saw it too. 

[00:54:29] T: You can see everything at once. 

[00:54:32] AC: But I like that two panel person, I don’t know if I could do three. 

[00:54:35] T: I’m sure you could do two panels. Yeah, I mean – 

[00:54:38] AC: But if I need all three –

[00:54:39] T: You have that two panels. When you upgrade to Vue three, that’s when you can have three panels open, that’s the law. 

[00:54:46] AR: I could see it even being like you want your template and your CSS in one panel and then you’re script in another panel, right? Because you have presentation and then you have like – 

[00:54:58] DR: Welcome to the world of template style script. Welcome to my realm.

[00:55:02] T: I want template and style side by side, because I need to look at the class names and I need to edit the style. I don’t want to be scrolling. Well, I mean as long as we’re talking about really important topics like the order of your single file component, are you a flat file structure person or a nested folders person? 

[00:55:24] AC: We’re running out of time. 

[00:55:25] DR: We’re running out of time. I like nested folders, but I tried that in Nuxt with components and it got very mad at me. It was just like, “Dude, this doesn’t exist.” I was like, “No, here it is. I typed you the exact path.” It’s like, “No, this don’t exists.” “But I told you where they were” “This don’t exists” So I don’t use that in Nuxt. Now, I just have 700 files in a folder, so that’s cool whatever. I am sure he’ll sort that stuff like that. 

[00:55:53] T: That is cool, good job Nuxt. 

[00:55:55] DR: Yeah, what could go wrong, right? You know, so it’s only like 50 or something but you know, no. Yeah, I like to nest as much as you can but I understand the problem. 

[00:56:09] T: Yeah, when you nest does every folder have its own index JS file or index.vue file? 

[00:56:14] DR: No, I can’t do that. That’s too much. 

[00:56:18] AC: Our backend is totally like that. 

[00:56:22] T: You really want to say any last word about Petite-Vue? I am not the one that knows anything about it. 

[00:56:29] AR: It’s small. It’s five kilobytes. Have fun. 

[00:56:33] T: 5.5. 

[00:56:34] AR: 5.5 kilobytes, have fun. 

[00:56:38] T: I thought I was the one that didn’t know anything about Petite-Vue, but I clearly know at least one more thing than Alex does so. 

[00:56:43] AR: Clearly. 

[00:56:44] DR: I think Petite-Vue, if you need to sneak it, if you want a better ergonomic experience at a very minimal cost, it is a great chance to sneak it into a project that doesn’t have Vue already. I think everyone has whatever, every company has the WordPress blog or every company has the whatever, the Drupal site, you know? Great chance to just sneak it in and get a little bit more, I don’t know. Something you like and are used to, so I think it’s a really good tool. 

I like that Vue can come in different flavors like Vue three kind of gets more React-y or even kind of Svelty you know? And so I like that these are – you see different flavors or shades of Vue that – 

[00:57:31] AC: 50 shades of Vue. 

[00:57:32] DR: Kind of, 50 shades of Vue that is the novel of my fan – the title of my fan fiction. 

[00:57:42] T: When can we read it? Are you releasing it on bookshop.com? 

[00:57:47] AR: You can get a copy of that from @gloomylumi. 

[00:57:54] AC: Okay, on that note. If people wanted to tell you how wrong you are about your choice of this spell time goes, where can people find you on the Internet?

[00:58:04] DR: They can find me at daverupert.com and @davatron5000. There is a davetron5000, he’s a Ruby guy, he is very talented but he’s not me. So Dava with an A, so davatron5000. 

[00:58:21] AC: All right, time for picks. Who shall I pick first for picks? Tessa. 

[00:58:32] T: After an into like that I wish I have like a ukulele or a guitar or something to pick today, unfortunately –

[00:58:39] AC: [inaudible 00:58:39]

[00:58:40] T: Oh no, the white guys are looking around. Are you going to play a reference Stairway to Heaven?

 [00:58:47] AC: Oh god, smell on the water tough. 

[00:58:52] T: Here we go. Alex is upset, because Dave has a string instrument. 

[00:59:00] DR: This is my micro bass. Go ahead, I’ll just play some – 

[00:59:07] AC: Some soothing tune. 

[00:59:07] T: Awesome. I didn’t know there were things like micro basses. Right now my only string instrument is electric, but yeah okay. So my pick today is the Great Ace Attorney Chronicles. If you haven’t played a Gyakuten Saiban, Ace Attorney game before, this is one that came out a while ago. It is some kind of crossover story I think where it is similar to the other Ace Attorney games, but it takes place in the Meiji period or something I think and there’s some kind of Sherlock Holmes-esque story line. 

The reason I am being so vague about it is, because it came out at the end of July and I have no time so I’ve just looked at it and not played it. It’s installed, I can’t play it. I am excited to play it. Phoenix Wright isn’t necessarily my flavor of game. It is very silly and when I went into the game I thought oh this are like law and mysteries, it is going to be very serious but anyway, if you like visual novels and games like that, it’s a pretty fun time and yeah, they really – you can tell they’re having fun when they make the characters. If you like that, if you like Sherlock Holmes, maybe this is the game for you and that’s my non-musical pick, thank you. Back to you Ari. 

[01:00:22] AC: Over to you Alex. 

[01:00:24] AR: Thanks Ari. Today, my pick is – I actually have two picks today and they are food related, because that is the story of my life. Previously, they used to have or I guess they still do have, occasionally we would get like these giant containers of cheeseballs like the crunchy cheese puff ball things from Costco, because we’re like that and my wife went to the grocery store yesterday and came home and was like, “I bought something.” It is Chester’s Cheddar Flavored Paws. 

They are cheese flavored snacks and so they are Cheetos, but they are not made with real cheese, not made with real Cheetas. It is paw shaped Cheeto things and they’re delicious and they come in a giant container.

[01:01:18] DR: These are the best, because the surface area is maximized. Yeah. 

[01:01:23] AC: Yes. 

[01:01:24] DR: Like Cheese per square inch is blasted as far as it can go. 

[01:01:30] AR: Yeah, like with a Cheeto, with an actual Cheeto it’s like intense cheese in like one part of your mouth but with this thing, “Oh she’s bringing it. She heard me.”

[01:01:40] T: Wow, all of our listeners will really appreciate. 

[01:01:42] AR: Yeah, I know. Listeners – 

[01:01:45] T: Wait, hang on. Okay, Chester from Cheetos, got you. 

[01:01:51] AR: Yeah, so because they’re like more flat, they actually fit in your mouth better and cover your tongue. 

[01:01:56] AC: All those indentations for the maximum cheese surface.

[01:02:01] T: Yeah, that doesn’t look like what I was expecting, they’re old. Cheeto was very different looking. Here’s a question for you, you know how you can buy just the Charms in Lucky Charms? Why don’t you just buy a bottle of cheese powder and eat it? 

[01:02:12] AR: We have that too, but –

[01:02:13] T: Oh my God.

[01:02:16] AR: Yes, we have. Actually, there is, there is a company that makes the cheese powder that you can get. We add it to pasta sauce and we’ll put it in like – 

[01:02:23] T: Jesus, I am literally lamp shading Alex’s wife, my god.

[01:02:25] DR: Mac and cheese. 

[01:02:26] AR: Mac and cheese, yeah. Then the other thing that I have today is my other pick is Bat, Bat is a company, I think it is actually a local company to me, they make a coffee soda and it comes in a can –

[01:02:39] T: That sounds awful.

[01:02:42] AR: It was pretty good. Tessa – 

[01:02:43] T: I’m just saying the name sounds awful. 

[01:02:45] AR: Sent me one the other day. 

[01:02:46] T: I did, I was like, “This sounds awful, you should try it. It will be fun.” 

[01:02:50] AR: Yeah, Tessa likes to send me awful things and she’s like, “This sounds terrible. You should absolutely try it” and – 

[01:02:55] T: I mean, that’s how I pick foods to eat. 

[01:02:57] AR: It was pretty good. It was weird but – 

[01:02:59] DR: What’s the coffee to soda ratio? 

[01:03:03] AR: It’s definitely like it was more bitter than I wanted it to be.

[01:03:09] DR: Oh, that’s not refreshing. 

[01:03:11] AR: No, imagine like an iced coffee with a couple of pumps of simple syrup in there and you’re like, “Oh yeah, this is a nice sweet coffee” right? This is like that but it’s just got that little bit more soda – 

[01:03:24] AC: One cup?

[01:03:26] T: A nice little coffee where they’re like – 

[01:03:28] AR: Yeah, what it would be really good for is if you’ve got like vanilla ice cream and then poured the coffee soda on top of that and have the coffee soda float, that would be like super choice with this soda. 

[01:03:41] T: Ari’s face is getting increasingly, I like to call it skeptical. 

[01:03:46] AC: Yeah. No, that’s a good word for it. 

[01:03:49] T: Yeah. Now I’m realizing though, isn’t it a nitro coffee basically? Coffee soda, because they pump bubbles in it and I’ve had that. It is interesting how Starbucks kind of alighted the coffee soda conversation, they’re calling it something else, because I know like 10, 20 years ago Coke made a coffee soda I think only in Japan and it was not popular and went away and now coffee soda is back. 

[01:04:12] AR: Yeah. There is coffee black or no, there is Coke Black I think is what it’s called now and you can get it and I’ve had it. I can’t recommend that one, that one is not a pick. Don’t put that one in the picks because it is not one. 

[01:04:25] T: That one is in the picks. Everyone is going to be looking for it. 

[01:04:27] AR: Oh no. Yeah, those are my picks. Back to you, Ari. 

[01:04:31] AC: All right, over to you Dave. 

[01:04:34] DR: Thank you, Ari. I really appreciate being on the show today. I got two picks today. Coming up from the Apple Arcade. 

[01:04:41] T: How’s the weather over there Dave? 

[01:04:43] DR: The weather is good and beautiful, just absolutely stunning out there. From Apple Arcade, I downloaded a game for the arcade, it is also in Steam called Mini Motorways. It is a traffic simulation game where you have a little house up here and then a little business up here and you have to connect the two together and then polarity ensues because there is too many cars and too many businesses and they go all caddy wampus. It is just a game, it’s still whatever, it is about managing traffic. 

[01:05:15] T: Sounds like life. 

[01:05:17] DR: I know. There is actually some really deep code system parallels in there too that I’ve just been exploring but anyway, it is good. 

[01:05:26] T: I have never heard cars being used as a code example. 

[01:05:30] DR: I think if you think of like how many components you have in a single file, I think it sort of makes sense. You like jam this up, we put too many parts on this engine, so it is just not going to work anymore. Then my second one is a graphic novel called Bubble. It is based on a podcast on the Maximum Fund Network called Bubble, which is kind of like a storytelling roleplaying podcast, but it is basically set in the future on some alien planet and it’s earth’s maybe our timeline but on an alien planet but the whole idea is what if monster hunters like Buffy the vampire slayer or whatever are a part of the gig economy. 

All of these monster hunters are on this app, they get notified like you have to go fight this monster and earn 55 credits or whatever it is, so it is kind of this like funny dystopian, non-dystopia sort of thing. It is really good, I guess content warning, heavy use of drugs but you know, it is like alien drugs or whatever but anyway, it’s good. 

[01:06:36] AC: Oh, so it’s okay. 

[01:06:38] T: Yeah, it is like Supernatural if they got a little bit of a living wage instead of just stealing people’s credit card information. 

[01:06:43] DR: Right, so anyway there was – yeah, it was good. I don’t know, I just love that universe when I heard it in the podcast and that about the graphic novel too because in the graphic novel, it was like a step up, because the art is really good, the storytelling. Anyway, it is a really good graphic novel. 

[01:07:01] T: Did you have maximum fun reading it? 

[01:07:04] DR: I had maximum fun reading it. That’s correct and listening to it. This is also a podcast, so anyway, I would recommend it just for that gag of the, “Oh we’re monster hunters but we’re all in an app” is a cool funny future to explore. Back to you, Ari. 

[01:07:24] AC: Okay. Well, our next segment is my picks. My pick this week is a show on Netflix called Special. I am just going to read the description from Netflix’s page. Netflix’s that is a weird word to say. Anyway, the description is: A young gay man with cerebral palsy branches out from his insular existence in hopes of finally going after the life he wants. The show is written and started by the person whose life it is based on, so representation is very strong in this show. 

It is funny, it is also, you know what? At times it is hard to watch because you know, it is about real struggles. A lot of it revolves around his co-dependent relationship with his mother and also her trying to find her way after he moves out. Yeah, I watch it all in a single day. The first season is actually short form, so the episodes are like 15 minutes long, but the second season they’re like half an hour long. Second season will take you a little bit longer to get through, but easily done in a day because I also played tons of video games that same day. 

If you have a few hours to kill, I highly recommend it and with that, I mean that is all for this week’s episode. Twitter, subscribe on that please @enjoythevuecast, thanks. Also, if you haven’t subscribed on your pod catcher of choice, please do so and also leave a review. I think we only have one review and I think I wrote it like after we started this show, so if you could make it so I am not just like the only person who loves the show that would be great. Finally, remember to tell everyone you know about Enjoy The Vue, because obviously, you want to spread the enjoyment of the Vue. 

Thanks for listening and until next time,  Enjoy The Vue.